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What do you do when you want to make a language without case marking?  Or with very little case marking?  That is what we attempt to explore in this episode.  If you would like to take up George’s “homework” challenge, make up a sketch of a language and send an example of some sort of narrative that demonstrates how you handle various semantic roles, with varying animacy, etc.  Here is an example story you can use (though you are fully free to make up one yourself).

There was once a man who beat his donkey every day.  One day, a second man, who was a neighbor, came to the donkey-beater and asked, “Why do you beat your donkey?”  The donkey-beater said, “Beating is all the donkey knows, I must beat him until he learns how to behave.”

The donkey-beater then went into his home and discovered his dinner wasn’t ready, so he beat his wife.  His neighbor heard the screams of the donkey-beater’s wife and came to the door.  “You should not beat your wife so much,” said the neighbor.   “I beat her until she learns to have dinner ready on time.”

Some time later, the neighbor saw the donkey-beater beating his son in a field.  This time, he did not say anything, but seized the donkey beater and began to beat him with a heavy cudgel.  When the donkey-beater asked why his neighbor was beating him, his neighbor replied, “I will beat you until you learn not to beat others.”

Again, you don’t have to use my story, it’s just an example.

Anyway, on with the shownotes …

Top of Show Greeting: Maxédri

Links and Resources:

Featured Conlang: Txtana

16 Responses to “Conlangery #35: Practicum – Getting Rid of Case Marking”

  1. Matrhew Park

    I am setting up to record something now. Do you have a format that works best? Mp3? Wav?

    Reply
  2. Chris

    Karmil:
    Zwanikaye, vetθaʊ̯v aɪ̯b laka vetróoltekaɪ̯ geĵaɪ̯nĵúrye an ŝasís traɪl. Aɪ̯baɪ̯nĵúrye, vetæm aɪ̯b laka goka róe vettaɪ̯ĵk buzáolih an oltekaɪ̯kaʊ̯ lɪ ŝasísda eɪ̯aɪ̯ vetɪsko, “Heθoltekaɪ̯ vaɪ̯z an ŝasís vaɪ̯ɪl lɪĵaɪ̯saɪ̯?” Vetlaɪ̯hʊ an oltekaɪ̯kaʊ̯ lɪ ŝasísda, “heθrek anye oltekaɪ̯keln heθróegreɪ̯ an ŝasís: Kikoɪ̯oltekaɪ̯ yoz oɪ̯ŝæf kesíargreɪ̯en oɪ̯ŝæz raɪ̯ĵdensu okerzo.”

    Vetgaɪ̯ur an oltekaɪ̯kaʊ̯ lɪ ŝasísda an eresónzenenm zemolɪ eɪ̯aɪ̯ vetpopob tʊs vevetúhyeʊɪ̯θrevet an fegési, evoɪ̯urd vetoltekaɪ̯ traz an skaʊ̯nmɪ traɪl. Vetpob an lak doɪ̯ anda naɪ̯laɪ̯hʊda an skaʊ̯nmɪ an oltekaɪ̯kaʊ̯ lɪ ŝasísdaɪlɪl eɪ̯aɪ̯ vetæm an ayaeɪ̯keln oaʊ̯olɪ. Vetlaɪ̯hʊ an lak doɪ̯ “kikoɪ̯yaɪ̯oltekaɪ̯ kaye vaɪ̯z an skaʊ̯nmɪ vaɪ̯ɪl.” “Heθoltekaɪ̯ yoz trɪf kesíargreɪ̯en trɪz θrevetu an fegési an raɪ̯ĵzo daʊ̯zwanye okerzo.”

    Zoeɪ̯ĵlur, vetŝoɪ̯ an lak doɪ̯ an oltekaɪ̯kaʊ̯ lɪ ŝasísda róe vehetoltekaɪ̯ an leɪ̯rnma traɪl aɪ̯b zweχaɪ̯ zemolɪ. Noɪ̯urdzwanye, tʊs vethʊ traz, goɪ̯kon olvetmurtur traz an oltekaɪ̯kaʊ̯ lɪ ŝasísda eɪ̯aɪ̯ vetpo traz oltekaɪ̯u traf aɪ̯b korúŋoz ĵɪŋkor. Vetɪsko an oltekaɪ̯kaʊ̯ lɪ ŝasísda vehetoltekaɪ̯ an lak doɪ̯ traf lɪĵaɪ̯saɪ̯ vetdaɪ̯laɪ̯hʊ an lak doɪ̯ traf, “keroltekaɪ̯ yoz vaɪ̯f kesíargreɪ̯en vaɪ̯z yaɪ̯oltekaɪ̯u lakdoɪ̯da okerzo.”

    Note: I used “the other person” instead of “his neighbor.” Sentence order: VSO, with postpositions. Some other things too

    Reply
    • admin

      I know it’s a big job for such a long text, but, interlinears? You can email those in if you want.

      Reply
    • Wm Annis

      We’re most interested in how people deal with this in conlangs with no case marking — a little exercise on focus, topicalization, etc., without having case to hold everything up.

      Reply
  3. Anthony

    I enjoyed this podcast very much. I might try my hands at the Homework.

    a 🙂 thought: as you’re all highly intelligent, maybe something like this: “and in the great state of Wisconsin, we have the mangumly William Anis.” (use one another’s names as adjectives – that way, its harder to run out of adjectives)

    ps: I googled Maxédri and all but one of the responses was this page. (though there was a “we have withheld the most similar pages” type of thing at page bottom)

    Reply
    • admin

      1) Bianca’s maiden name works for the adjective thing, her married name, Richards, maybe not so much. Annis could work. Corley will never work, though. I don’t think I’ll do that, but funny thought.
      2) Our top of show greetings are not always in published conlangs. And even when they are, people tend not to send me links. It could very well be that Maxédri is not online anywhere. I’ll have to contact the creator to find out.

      Reply
      • Anthony

        1) >but funny thought.
        which was the point. (the point wasn’t that you guys do that at the next recording – just enjoy a chuckle)

        2) just thought to mention.

        Reply
  4. Koppa Dasao

    I wonder… does the pronoun ‘he’ that refer to the donkey indicate the donkey’s sexual gender, or is it just a remnant of grammatical gender?

    Reply
  5. Rhamos Vhailejh

    This took FOREVER for me to translate, but I guess that doesn’t matter since it’s already two and a half years or so late to begin with. lol. Either way though, here it is in Duojjin. Also, don’t bother trying to search Duojjin at this time. There’s a thread for it on Omniglot, but it’s very incomplete and even more out of date. I’m currently working on a comprehensive documentation of my grammar, and it basically requires the unlearning of everything that’s currently available on it because of how much it’s changed since then. lol. I can put together another version of this that has things laid out a lot cleaner and send it out, if anyone is interested. I’ve got it first in regular Duojjin, then I’ve got it broken down into morphemes, and then I’ve got a morpheme-for-morpheme analysis. I could also do an IPA transcription, but ugh, after all this, I just don’t want to do that yet. lol. I’ll come to that a little later and drop it in a reply to this comment.

    Petakjåjjval, kyyrh’eilamnen, kuka hänen hummun ii’dakaanön netessöval. Netejjval dokyyrh’tullanen, kuka heiöhöl ii’lihomen, niin hummuen dakaaheisvöl ii’ajaanen, niin ii’jepunen: “Teien hummun tei’dakaahön mikosköhöl?” Hummuen daakaheis’puhunen: “Kelpattan hummu’måhin, häŋ sei’jöndakaahön havamaukua työhöl.”
    Hänna huovöl hummuen dakaaheis’ajaanen, niin ii’lyötönen mika hänna påva’mukeiman, ninteia hänen veikyylän hän’dakaanen. Puhistussan veikyylen dakaaheisen hummuen mika hänen liho’šulunen, niin heien omorövöl ii’tullanen. “Teien veikyylän tei’jindakaahän tavakåat,” liho’puhunen. “Häŋ sei’dakaahön havamaukua mukeiöhöl påvan hjeivåöra.”
    Getokjåjjval, hänen valon ii’dakaahun kepaval, mika liho’svennen. Tasitåöra, skitaavajj ii’puhunen, vaki hein ii’vattonen, niin hein ii’dakaalken kovåim pakkajj. Mikåöra mikosköhöl hein ii’dakaanun, mika hänvöl hei’jepunen. Liho’puhunen: “Tein sei’dakaahön tevamaukua dakaasköl dokyyrhessen.”

    pe+ta+kjå+ejj+val kyyrh+eilam+inen, kuka hän+en hummu+n ii+dakaa+önön net+essö+val. net+ejj+val do+kyyrh+tulla+inen, kuka hei+öhöl ii+liho+imen, niin hummu+en dakaa+heis+völ ii+ajaa+inen, niin ii+jepu+inen: “Tei+en hummu+n tei+dakaa+öhön mi+koskö+öhöl?” Hummu+en daaka+heis+puhu+inen: “kel+patta+n hummu+må+ihin, hän+n sei+jön+dakaa+öhön ha+vama+ukua työ+öhöl.”
    Hän+na huo+völ hummu+en dakaa+heis+ajaa+inen, niin hän+na påva+mukei+iman, mika hän+lyötö+inen, ninteia hän+en veikyylä+n ii+dakaa+inen. Puhistu+essa+n veikyylä+en dakaa+heis+en hummu+en mika hän+en liho+šulu+inen, niin hei+en omor+övöl ii+tulla+inen. “Tei+en veikyylä+n tei+jin+dakaa+ihän ta+vaka+jat,” liho+puhu+inen. “Hän+n sei+dakaa+ihön ha+vama+ukua mukei+öhöl påva+n hjeiva+øra.”
    Ge+to+kjå+ejj+val, hän+en valo+n ii+dakaa+ihun kepa+val, mika liho+sven+inen. ta+sitåa+øra, ski+taava+ejj ii+puhu+inen, vaki hei+n ii+vatto+inen, niin hei+n ii+dakaa+elken kova+jim pakka+ešška. Mika+øra mi+koskö+öhöl hei+n ii+dakaa+unun, mika hän+völ hei+jepu+inen. Liho+ni+puhu+nen: “Tei+n sei+dakaa+öhön te+vama+ukua dakaa+ski+öhöl do+kyyrh+essa+en.”

    previous+this+time+PARTITIVE+INESSIVE person.AGENT+life+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE, who 3rdPersAnim.TOPIC+GENITIVE donkey+ACCUSATIVE TOPIC.AGENT+attack+do.PAST.GNOMIC day+COMPREHENSIVEPLURAL+INESSIVE.day+PARTITIVE+INESSIVE different+person.AGENT+come+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE, who 3rdPersAnim.NONTOPIC+INTENTIVE TOPIC.AGENT+neighour+is.PAST.PERFECTIVE, and donkey+of attack+HABITUAL+ALLATIVE TOPIC.AGENT+go+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE, and TOPIC.AGENT+inquire+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE: “You+GENITIVE donkey+ACCUSATIVE 2ndPers.AGENT+attack+do.PRESENT.GNOMIC what+purpose+INTENTIVE?” donkey+GENITIVE attack+HABITUAL.AGENT+say+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE: “RESTRICTIVE+what was said+ACCUSATIVE donkey.AGENT+knowledge+do.PRESENT.PERFECTIVE, 3rdPersAnim.TOPIC+ACCUSATIVE 1stPers.AGENT+must+attack+do.PRESENT.GNOMIC 3rdPers.POSSESSIVE+education+TEMPORATERMINATIVE act+INTENTIVE.”
    3rdPersAnim.TOPIC+POSSESSIVE house+ALLATIVE donkey+GENITIVE attack+HABITUAL.AGENT+go+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE, and 3rdPersAnim.TOPIC+POSSESSIVE meal.AGENT+preparation+is.NEG.PAST.PERFECTIVE what TOPIC.AGENT+discover+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE, consequently 3rdPersAnim.TOPIC+GENITIVE spouse+ACCUSATIVE TOPIC.AGENT+attack+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE. scream+NOMINATIVEPLURAL+ACCUSATIVE spouse+GENITIVE attack+HABITUAL+GENITIVE donkey+GENITIVE what 3rdPersAnim.TOPIC+GENITIVE neighbour+ear+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE, and 3rdPersAnim.NONTOPIC+GENITIVE door+ALLATIVE TOPIC.AGENT+come+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE. “you+GENITIVE spouse+ACCUSATIVE you.AGENT+should+attack+do.NEG.PRESENT.GNOMIC this+amount+ADVERB,” neighbour.AGENT+say+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE. “3rdPersAnim.TOPIC+ACCUSATIVE 1stPers.AGENT+attack+do.PRESENT.GNOMIC 3rdPers.POSSESSIVE+education+TEMPORATERMINATIVE purpose+INTENTIVE meal+ACCUSATIVE good+TEMPORAL.”
    sequential+that+time+PARTITIVE+INESSIVE, 3rdPersAnim.TOPIC+GENITIVE child+ACCUSATIVE TOPIC.AGENT+attack+do.PRESENT.PROGRESSIVE field+INESSIVE, what neighbour.AGENT+sight+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE. this+occurance+TEMPORAL, no+thing+PARTITIVE TOPIC.AGENT+speach+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE, but 3rdPersonAnim.NONTOPIC+ACCUSATIVE TOPIC.AGENT+grip+do.PAST.PERRFECTIVE, and 3rdPersAnim.NONTOPIC+ACCUSATIVE TOPIC.AGENT+attack+do.PAST.INCEPTIVE heaviness+ADJECTIVE cudgel+INSTRUCTIVE. what+TEMPORAL what+purpose+INTENTIVE 3rdPersAnim.NONTOPIC+ACCUSATIVE TOPIC.AGENT+attack+do.PAST.PROGRESSIVE, what 3rdPersAnim.TOPIC+ALLATIVE 3rdPersAnim.NONTOPIC.AGENT+inquire+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE. neighbour+re+speach+do.PAST.PERFECTIVE: “you+ACCUSATIVE 1stPers.AGENT+attack+do.PRESENT.GNOMIC 2ndPers.POSSESSIVE+education+TEMPORATERMINATIVE attack+no+INTENTIVE different+person+NOMINATIVEPLURAL+GENITIVE.”

    Reply
    • Rhamos Vhailejh

      I’m listening to episode 43 right now, and now I’m starting to realize, was this supposed to be specifically a caseless challenge? I guess that’s what I get for working on my conlang while listening to the podcast. Oh, well. Nothing I can do about it now. I guess it doesn’t much matter anyway, since the challenge was issued over two years ago. lol. At any rate, it’s there now, and hopefully someone somewhere can take away something from it.

      Reply
    • Rhamos Vhailejh

      Well, here it is. Got the IPA filled out for the above passage in Duojjin. It took a long time to compose, that’s for sure. Again, didn’t realize at first that this was just for caseless languages, but I’ve already come this far, right? Put a lot of work into this. =P Might as well just do the IPA anyway. Hopefully someone will be able to enjoy or appreciate this somehow, and I hope you like it. If it can’t be read on the webpage here, then copy/paste it into Wordpad with Doulos SIL font.

      ˌpʰe.təˈkjɑi̯ʒ.vɑl ˌkyːɾ.eˈlɑm.nɛn ˈku.kə ˈhæn.ɛn ˈhumː.ɯn ˌi.dəˈkɑː.nʊn nɛtˈɛsː.sʊˌvɑl nɛtˈeʒ.vɑl ˌdo.kyːrhˈtul.ləˌnɛn ˈku.kə ˈhe.ʊˌhʊl ˌi.liˈho.mɛn nin ˈhum.mɯˌɛn dəˈkɑː.hesˌvʊl ˌi.ɑˈjɑː.nɛn nin ˌi.jɛˈpʰu.nɛn ˈte.ɛn ˈhum.mɯn ˌte.dəˈkɑː.hʊn mɪˈkos.kʊˌhʊl ˈhum.mɯˌɛn dəˈkɑː.hes.pʰuˈhun.nɛn kɛlˈpʰɑt̚.tɑn ˌhum.mɯˈmɑi̯.hin ˈhænt̚.n̩ seˈjʊn.dəˌkɑː.hʊn ˌhɑ.vəˈmɑu̯.kwɑ ˈtyʊ̯.hʊl ˈhæn.nə ˈʍo.vʊl ˈhum.mɯn dəˌkɑː.heis.ɑˈjɑː.nɛn nin ˌi.lyʊ̯ˈtʊ.nɛn ˈmi.kə ˈhænː.nə ˌpɑi̯.və.mɯˈke.mɑn ninˈte.ə ˈhæn.ɛn veˈkyː.læn ˌhæn.dəˈkɑ.hʊn ˌpu.hisˈtusː.sɑn vɛˈkyy.len də.ˈkɑː.heisˌen ˈhum.mɯˌen ˈmi.kə ˈhæn.ɛn ˌli.hɔ.ʃuˈlɯ.nɛn nin ˈhe.ɛn ɔˈmoɾ.ʊˌvʊl iˈtulː.lə.nɛn ˈte.ɛn veˈkyy.læn teˈjin.dəˈkɑː.hɑn ˌtɑ.vəˈkjɑi̯.ɑtʰ ˌli.hɔ.pɯˈhu.nɛn ˈhænt̚.n̩ ˌse.dəˈkɑː.hʊn ˌhɑ.vəˈmɑu̯.kwɑ mɯˈkeʊ̯.hʊl ˈpʰɑi̯.vɑn hjeˈvɑi̯ʊ̯.ɾə ˌgɛ.tʰoˈkjɑi̯ʒ.vɑl ˈhæn.ɛn ˈvɑ.lɔn ˌi.dəˈkɑː.hɯn kɛˈpʰɑ.vɑl ˈmi.kə ˌli.hɔˈsvɛnː.nɛn ˌtɑ.siˈtɑi̯ʊ̯.ɾə skiˈtɑː.vɑʒ ˌi.pɯˈhu.nɛn ˈvɑ.ki hen iˈvɑt̚.tɔˌnɛn nin hen ˌi.dəˈkɑːl.kɛn koˈvɑi̯.ɪm pʰɑk̚.kɑʒ mɪˈkjɑi̯u̯.ɾə mɪˈkos.kuˌhʊl hɛn ˌi.dəˈkɑː.nɯn ˈmi.kə ˈhæn.vʊl heˈjɛ.pɯˌnɛn ˌli.hɔ.pɯˈhu.nen tɛn ˌze.dəˈkɑː.hʊn ˌtɛ.vəˈmɑu̯.kwɑ dəˈkɑː.skʊl dɔˈkyːɾˌhɛsː.sɛn

      Reply
      • Rhamos Vhailejh

        It would seem that this forum can’t handle IPA properly. All of my mid-low front vowels have become mid-high front vowels, and a lot of my syllable breaks have been replaced by spaces. So basically, this is useless. Sorry for wasting everyone’s time. I would delete it if I could. =\

        Reply
        • Rhamos Vhailejh

          Hmm. Weird. It shows up fine when I copy and paste it into Wordpad. I’m sorry again for making consecutive posts. I would edit, but there doesn’t seem to be an option. =(
          Also, that mid-high front vowel in the very first syllable is supposed to be a mid-low front vowel. I think that’s the only error in there, but I could be mistaken. Sorry again for the posts-on-posts. I feel very noobish doing this. >.<

          Reply

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